this post.
- Children lack the foresight to learn the things they need to know as adults.
That may be true, but kids that have had some control over educating themselves know how to find help (person, book, whatever..) and teach it to themselves.
- Gaps may appear in a child’s education unless a professional controls the material that is covered.
Sorry, gaps appear in everyone’s education. Looking at what kids come out of the public school system with tells you that.
- Schools tend to have a ready-made source of peers and children who do not go to conventional schools may not make friends and develop social skills as well as their peers.
oh, come on. This is so old and no one pulls it out anymore unless they are desperate. In our society you have to work waaaay to hard to isolate your kids. None of us live in a cave and the families that are off living in armed compounds (say FLDS) have so many other things going on they aren’t even worth considering. I touched on socialization here while I’m talking about another issue.
- Schools offer a diverse group of adults and students making it easier to expose the children to different cultures, socio-economic groups and worldviews.
I’m sorry, this one doesn’t fly either. Most schools are built around communities, and most communities are fairly socio-economically similar. That’s not diverse. OTH, homeschool groups draw from a wide ranging area (My local group pulls in people from about a 5 county area.) and all walks of life. My kids regularly interact with other families from all different socio-economic groups and worldviews, but even more, since they have friends across those “lines” they have to learn to deal with their differences.
- Children are not motivated to learn anything and will spend all of their time in un-educational endeavors if not coerced into doing otherwise.
Sandra Dodd still has the best response to this one. Especially this one by Mary Gold.
- Not all parents are able to provide a stimulating environment or have the skills and patience required to encourage the student’s curiosity.
Skills are not the issue. All they need is dedication. This post (again) is where I talk about that.
- The lack of accreditation and diploma’s may make it difficult for a child to get into college or get a job.
My child has a diploma. In Indiana it’s very straight forward, we are a private school and like any other private school, we can issue a diploma and transcript. I believe most states have something in place for homeschoolers to receive diploma. I do know that getting into college (except for a few exceptions) is very straightforward and even the military and trade unions accept homeschool diplomas.
- Children who direct their own educations may not ever learn to take direction from others.
There’s more going on here, then a yes or no. What it boils down to (IMO) is that they take direction fine if they are interested in something, whether for itself or as a route to getting to where they want to go. OTH, they are often able to ask “WHY?” something is needed if it’s just being done “because”.
They don’t balk at taking direction. They balk at idiotic direction and are very willing to tell you so.
Anyone else want to add anything?
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I can’t believe there are still people who hold these ignorant views…obviously this person has never been around a single homeschooled child, let alone talked to a large enough sample to make any statistically significant observations.
I think you’ve rebutted the original article very well, thanks, Meg!
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Please note that the criticisms were found via some searching and re-buttled nearly every one of them, although we are still very much a public school househould…….I don’t buy into hardly any of the stuff in that post, just putting it out there in an effort to allow for folks to up more of their thoughts that seem to be more of the general populations thoughts – which is great!
I do want to add that everything I can find says that the military will not take a homeschool diploma, however, as you mentioned, most people these do some type of state cooperative program instead of just the old fashion thoughts of “homeschool” which means there is a diploma, a transcript, some records. But, those who do not, need to be aware of this.
Of all the people I’ve met on-line and the ones I have known personally (which is just a few) are all part of a program and the military thing would be a non-issue.
I’m being very selfish here but I’m wondering, did I do a decent job with my rebuttle or did I disappoint?
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My kids are in my hair today, no public school, and my mom is here which makes them crazier, so that non-sense sentence in the first paragraph makes no sense to me and I don’t even remember what I was trying to say.
something like, “Just putting it up there for folks to see and for them those who are non-believers to see then absurdity of it all”
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I do want to add that everything I can find says that the military will not take a homeschool diploma, however, as you mentioned, most people these do some type of state cooperative program
Jerri Ann,
Most people DO NOT do some sort of state cooperative program, I’m not sure where you got that from my post.
Also, the military will take a homeschool graduate as a Tier 1 enlistment (GED is a Tier 2) – http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/homeschool.htm
If you are looking at a military academy, there are more hoops to jump through.
And lastly, no, I didn’t think your responses were full rebuttals. To me you seemed to be agreeing with some of them.
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“Not all parents are able to provide a stimulating environment or have the skills and patience required to encourage the student’s curiosity.”
Anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to small children would know that their curiosity does not need to be stimulated. They are far more curious than most adults.
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Meg, I think you pretty much covered it.
My four were homeschooled, do fine in college, and my oldest was in the NAVY, and is now in the National Guard – all without diplomas.
Unschooling doesn’t, ever, never, won’t, can’t – mean that a child receives no education or guidance. That’s just plain ignorant.
Every branch of the military accepts homeschooled students. If a parent is so inclined, they need to call the local recruiting office – each recruitment center handles their own applicants – a person won’t find the information they’re seeking online. In addition, all of the military academies have homeschooled students currently enrolled. It’s quite possible to assemble a transcript for an “unschooler”. I know – I’ve done it.
If you’re not an unschooling (or even homeschooling) parent, stop speaking on behalf of homeschoolers. I stopped reading Mom is Teaching when Summer left. Now I remember why.
If this is harsh, too bad. I hate that anyone has to continue defending their educational choices. Public schools continue to deliver less than educated young adults to the populace, and yet the focus is still on this 2% of families who homeschool.
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I agree with Doc — no one should have to defend her educational choices.
In my experience, creativity and *self initiative* is much more important in the workplace than “being able to take directions from others.” Most of us can adapt to following rules and directions when we need to, to achieve a goal (like succeeding in a job). But it would be much harder to motivate someone to generate ideas, take the lead when necessary, and be self-responsible if he is used to being coddled, prodded, or coerced into doing everything through threats of detention.
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I didn’t gather from your post Meg that most people participate in some kind of cooperative run homeschooling. I was saying that thus far with that blog and in the experience with the very few people I know, they all use some sort of outside sources.
Let me see if I can paint a better picture for you. When I asked my mom (who was sitting here as this all unfolded) what she thought it meant to homeschool, here’s a synopsis of the definition she gave me:
“I don’t know, just kind of like they let the kids do whatever they want. You know so and so’s kids were supposedly homeschooled but by who I don’t know because their mom (who was single) worked 10 and 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a a week. You remember, at one time when they were in their teens neither of them could do much reading at all. And, remember when that one applied for a job, the manager told you that the applicant couldn’t do simple math? I don’t know, it just seems like it is easier for parents to just let their kids sit at home and do nothing than to put them in school and put up with what is expected of the kids at school. You know, all that homework, all those projects and stuff. Homeschooled kids don’t get that”Now, when you compare what she just described as homeschooling to what you call homeschooling, yours sounds very organized and “cooperative” with outside sources if I am not confused terribly? Because from what I’ve read here and on other homeschooled parents blogs, they in the end, work their arses off to make sure that their kids learn as much as possible and those homeschooled kids are exposed to way more than any public schooled child ever could.
So, I may have to make this a post later, but, I took to the telephone and email. Now, again, this is just a glance at how homeschooling is perceived around me which is also how I’ve basically given you descriptions of the public schools….the ones near me. I love that it is better in most places, heck it is better apparently in 46 other places as Alabama ranks way down there on the lists when it comes to education.
Wait, one more thing, do you know that although we rank 45, 46, somewhere down there depending on where you look, in public education, our pre-k schools that are run by the state (which are run much like I discussed as unschooling and I happen to be very verse in this as I just closed a preschool that was being looked at my the state to be funded by the state) come in number one.
Now, tell me if you can achieve number one in state funded Pre-k and you fall to number 46 or so after that, someone needs to be checking out someone else’s ideas, wouldn’t you say? (Yack, bad sentence, sorry, but I hope it made my point.)
Anyway, so I waited on an email or two to tell me how more folks in my area perceived homeschooling. And, finally, some 4 hours later it seems, 3 people had time to reply. One of them said, “my sister is homeschooling her 5 year old and they don’t do anything any different now than they did last year, I don’t know why it works but he is just as adjusted and seems to be doing just as well as my kindergartener that is in private Christian school”. So, see, the perception is that the child is doing nothing because apparently they’ve been doing it for longer than just this year and they just do what is natural for the child which is “pour in knowledge when he is asking for it, seeking it and wanting it (and regardless of any criticism anywhere, we all know children are like that, they are begging for information)” and let life happen when it happens. I am currently awaiting an email from her sister who sent this reply from her mobile “I’m busy with Joe’s (not his name) school project for today, I’ll get back with you.” So, see, she is doing something that seems to fall in line with what you guys talk about, although the folks on the outside looking in are clueless. Even her own sister doesn’t know it and they are a pretty tight knit family.
The two phone calls rendered me with an ear ache as both of the parents in one family got on the phone and the mother in another, all of them telling tales about homeschool kids who later joined the public school system and were behind as well as tales of homeschooled children that played on various summer athletic teams who weren’t adjusted.
Now, when that is the perception that is floating around, people get the wrong idea. So, as I said before, “most” folks are engaged in some kind of “cooperative” learning from the outside as well as what is done on the inside even if outsiders don’t know it. And, I was wrong to say, “cooperative learning through the state” as that is not exactly what I meant. What I meant was cooperative learning that, in some way or another, allows the child the distinction of “graduating” from a program whether that be a homeschooled private program, an online program, etc.
Plus I rarely hear anyone of you say, “we do all of our homeschooling ourselves. We never stray out of the home with other homeschooling families and we don’t allow our children out and about to do projects” As a matter of fact, all of you discuss it in a totally different light….it is a cooperative learning between parents and the community, whether that be online or other homeschooling parents.
Now, with that said, that was what I had hoped to do over at Mom is Teaching but see, when folks leave, such as Holly, a public school advocate in Atlanta, because she felt like public schools were being bashed, and Doc who commented here because he doesn’t want to have to defend his decisions, then we lose that effect. We lose the ability to say, we all have a place in a child’s education. We all make a difference. We all can educate and we can all do it in our own way and make it work.
Finally, as for me agreeing with some of the criticisms, there were some that were just exactly what the people I know would have said and I merely tried to make sure that it was understood that I was concerned about those areas myself. The fact of the matter is this, my concerns that I voiced, where I seemingly agreed with the criticisms were all, every single one of them, were based on the parent’s intervention. And, at this point, I don’t trust my own instincts to intervene and do what I think is best for my child in a completely homeschooled environment. I grew up relying on the public school system to teach me and I am the product of a teacher and a was a public school teacher myself.
That said, I’m learning from you guys. I’m learning from Holly in Atlanta that being number 46 on the list of schools in education really means we have a subpar system here in our state because when she tells me about the education her child is getting, I can promise you, she wouldn’t get that education here where I live.
And, how can anyone (Doc, this is for you) feel you are having to defend your choice when I’m declaring neither one good or bad, I”m merely showing you my own weaknesses and giving you an opportunity to show me how to make myself, my children, our system of education (regardless of whether it is public, private, religious, homeschool, online homeschool) better. That’s not defending….that’s teaching.
And, if your teaching….then that in turn makes us all educators now doesn’t it.
By the way, I called the local Army office and was told no that homeschooled diploma’s are not accepted. I directed him to the website quoted above and he stood his ground. The Navy guy professed to not really know but assumed it was fine especially after reading the website information and the Air Force guy said that they were accepted without hesitation. So, it should be of no wonder why people (like me) are misinformed. Someone is failing to educate, correct? That’s where the website should come back in and we all have to learn to be teachers, we all have to learn to educate, regardless of our title.
I’m going to proof this so I don’t look like a raving lunatic, but I can’t promise it is structurally perfect, I have to be in and out of the shower in the next 20 minutes and I had no plans to write a doggone novel here, it just happened. Now I have 13 minutes to shower, I’ll be back later this afternoon or early evening as I am headed to….yea parent visitation at my child’s school. As if I am not visiting that school 3 or 4 times a week anyway because I want to know what is happening with my kid. Too bad that is not the case with about 280 other kids in that building.
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What I meant was cooperative learning that, in some way or another, allows the child the distinction of “graduating” from a program whether that be a homeschooled private program, an online program, etc.
Jerri Ann,
I’ll repeat it again. My child did not graduate from a program.
Now maybe I’m splitting hairs, but when you say that to me it means an outside oversight program. At a minimum, something like Clonlara or NARHS, or possibly one of the state oversight programs in a state that requires it.
As for the military, every recruiter is different and they all receive slightly different training. Their personal feelings also come into play. I didn’t want to link to HSLDA and I don’t have time to track down other links.
FYI, just so you know. Everything I hear out of Georgia is that they have screwed up rules about homeschoolers applying to state colleges. I’ve never looked closer, but it will color everything you hear locally.
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If this were my blog, I’d probably pull that long comment up and tear it apart. Because, well, it needs it. I doubt any gentle persuasion is going to change the mind of someone who researches a subject by “calling a few friends and asking their opinion”. Those few friends hardly constitutes what “most people” think. Oy.
I’m not sure, but I think she’s calling us liars. My son has spent the last 7 years defending this country in two different branches of the military, and never obtained a diploma – other than the one I printed out using Word.
Enlistment information here:
http://home.kc.rr.com/milhmschlhq/military_enlistment_requirements.htm -
I’m not calling anyone a liar, I am merely explaining to you how some people are mis-informed. That being me and many like me. And, if it were your blog (Doc), you’ve you could do whatever you pleased and I’m sure Meg feels free to do the same.
As for Georgia and homeschoolers – when I mentioned Georgia, i was specifically speaking of Holly’s decision that I was being too judgmental toward public schools because she feels like and rightly so (compared to where my child is in school) that her child is getting a very good education. I wasn’t speaking of Georgia in terms of homeschoolers, I was speaking in terms of people reading the blog and leaving or being offended because everyone doesn’t think like they think.
Secondly, I am not an idiot, I do not think that calling a few friends or emailing a few constitutes a research. However, only one of the emails went to someone in Alabama, the other were stretched far and wide across the nation.
So, my point is, if you believe in what you are doing, instead of getting offended, speak up as you have here. If I were one to be offended as easily as Doc, I would have balled up and given up on most of my life long ago because it has been filled with much criticism. (Just wait til I post about the flyer I was handed tonight at my son’s parent visitation inviting me to a seminar held by some school official on how to “make homework work”. Ha, they HAVE by the way been reading my blog and I was given the flyer with a half smile and a half look of “Oh my gosh, I sure hope she doesn’t come” look.
Meg, I know just from your trip to this past week that your child was not educated within the confines of your home with no outside help. That’s what I’m trying to get to. I do think that one of the military guys made a distinct difference in a diploma from a “state agency” kind of thing but most of them acted as if I was from Mars.
As I try to explain myself, what I am saying is that you allow your child to learn from out-sourcing, other resources than just you and what you choose to teach him or what he/she specifically asks about. You see that your child gets a broad education.
And, I’m speaking for “many” not “most” and certainly not “all” but many people who have no first hand knowledge of homeschool think that it is as I described above. As a matter of fact, I thought as much until several years ago when I was handed my head on a platter by a woman who was homeschooling her children. I was young, I was an idiot and blatantly spoke my mind about “homeschooling” knowing absolutely nothing about it except the kinds of things I put in the first post.
Doc, I read that your son has served in two branches of the military, however, I was merely telling you what I was told by recruiters in my area to show you that not everyone knows what you and Meg know about homeschooling. And by leaving the blog, not reading, not commenting, you just took that opportunity away from many people.
Again, i wonder why you aren’t willing to teach people what you know instead of slamming them for not knowing any better?
Again, kids asking for food, gotta run, not proofing this one at all.
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